The Inconvenience of Commandment Number 4
Disclaimer: This is some good ol' fashioned Adventist apologetics. I know a lot of people may not agree with this. So I encourage the rebuttals and dialogue in the comments, prayerfully and respectfully. :)
One of the 28 fundamental beliefs of the SDA Church is...Belief number 20. We observe the Seventh day Sabbath of scripture.
Right smack dab in Exodus 20:8-11 we get the longest commandment of God's moral 10 laws. The first four deals with our relationship with God, the last 6 for our relationships with our fellow man.
Written by His own hand. And it starts with the word 'Remember'....It's almost like God knew most people would forget it lol
And as you can imagine, that's a hot topic for critics of the Adventist church and something my church has been defending since...Oh I dunno, 1863 or something lol
There's lot of verses I can point to about why the Seventh day (commonly called Saturday) is the biblical Sabbath of the bible, but I wanted to focus on one. You see, something Christians can agree upon is that Christ is King.
Everyone that follows Christ as Lord and Saviour will agree on that at least. Well there are some that don't claim His divinity but alas....Let's at least find some common ground there.
And Christ did not sin. Ever. Tempted like we are, in all points, but never fell to sin. So I don't think people are lining up to call Him a false prophet anytime soon.....
Or are they?
You see, we run into a little snag with this claim in Matthew 24.
Let's explore this verse for a minute to get context. Matthew 24 is a prophetic chapter of the book. Jesus is letting His followers know, what will happen in the future. And no matter what denomination you may hold to, every one can agree, Matthew 24 is talking about the future.
Whether it's 70 AD, the End of Time, both....Whatever, you may believe. He tells His followers to pray that their flight be not in the winter neither on THE sabbath day.
Why would He do that?
Jesus obviously knows that He will be dead and resurrected when they are told to pray. Doesn't He do away with the Law / Sabbath after His death and resurrection? And if the Sabbath wasn't still an issue....Why would it matter?
If Jesus was letting people know, the Sabbath is still binding (just like the other 9 commandments that Christians usually agree on) that would make Him a false prophet for talking about the future and warning His people about fleeing on the Sabbath.
I think when you break this verse down it cements that THE sabbath (not a sabbath and there's a difference) is very much still law. If we love Him, we keep His commandments after all ;)
But here's the bigger test for me....I'm a Christian. Jesus is my example. And I am supposed to live exactly as He did in my life. And sure, that's a lot easier said than done and thank God for my Saviour.
Here's the kicker...Jesus not only kept the Sabbath in His earthly life. He even 'rested' on the Sabbath in death.
Don't agree with this?
Let's talk. Let's discuss. Let's do a bible study about it :)
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I mean, it's written, I don't see why disagreeing with the fact that it's written helps anyone. But, I do have to ask.
Why?
Could it be any other day? Is it arbitrary? if it isn't, and it truly is very important as to be on Moises' tables, then Why does everyone ignore it (almost of course) with no consequence?
Love to hear from you man! It's been a minute :)
Why is a great question! For me, it's because I love my Lord and Saviour. And He says in John 14:15, if you love me, keep my commandments. So it's obedience out of love.
As for people ignoring it, that's a whole other conversation lol Sunday instituted by the pagan Romans to get away from the Jews. Huge history on it, it's pretty telling.
But that being said, there's a blessing attached to it. Sabbath from everything of the world. Complete rest, no stress :)
I had a coworker who would get saturdays off due to his faith... I remember thinking (what an awesome trick!) lol
But, on a serious note. I did learn recently about the Pagan adaptation, but as you said, of all the thousands of denominations of Christianity, they only agree on one thing; Christ. The rest is all over the place, almost.
Good to see you are still around brother, this place always needs kind people like yourself.
Cheers
Yeah man, still here. Not as much as I used to be, but still hopeful that one day this stuff will moon LOL
When I was younger my parents would not shop or go out to eat on sunday. It was only rarely when we were on vacation that we might do that. I remember when I started working retail and my dad was so mad that I had to work on Sundays.
Yeah man, blue laws are still on the books in some states. I don't think they are enforced but I remember things shutting down on Sundays up here too.
Saturday is always a holy day for me 🍺😉
ha ha ha ha I see it!
Saturdays now are based on the Gregorian calendar which went into effect in October 1582 AD. So how does that effect the Sabbath?
An entire people (the Jewish nation) has kept Sabbath since the beginning of time. When the calendar changed, the just skipped dates, not days of the week. It went something like August 10th to the 13th but it was still Monday, Tuesday etc...
Let's delve into the Builda whale farm on the Hive, Gogreenbuddy, who is also colloquially known as the Marky mark USAINVOTE UPMYVOTE IPROMOTE and 100's more if not thousands this individual has asserted that his intentions behind this initiative are driven by a desire to contribute positively to the community. Now, let's explore what he is earning on a monthly basis from this venture. income is said to be generated through the use of multiple alternative accounts, which he utilizes to cast votes in favor of his own shit content. The community seems to have mixed feelings about this practice many are scared to speak up.
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On Hive a significant issue exists with automatic upvotes consistently rewarding the same individuals day in and day out
We want to address the issue of downvoting. It has caused pain to many people, and we want to make sure it doesn't happen again reply to @jacobtothe
On Hive a significant issue exists with automatic upvotes consistently rewarding the same individuals day in and day out
We hope that those who genuinely care about Hive will reconsider their actions, as continuing down this path could inadvertently harm innocent users who are unaware of these issues
lol the Marky mark keeps dreaming
There's been a notable increase in frustration and concern among many users
Reply 2 @crimsonclad You may consider yourself clever
Reply to @crimsonclad
Consider revising the value plan, as it's not providing significant benefits to HIVE
The Value Plan, as it stands, seems to be a one-sided relationship with the HIVE platform, where the benefits are one-way
Actions indeed speak louder than words, a fact we've all observed individuals may talk a good game, a whole lot of shit, but their actions often expose their genuine nature LOL
We consider it unwise to engage in harmful actions, even if you think you can escape the repercussions
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The Hive Police aka Hivewatchers, are the real heroes of Hive LOL, aren't they?
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On Hive, there's a user who frequently burns a significant amount of Hive LOL with his own accounts
How To Fool An Entire Population
it's so, so concerning to see Blocktrades delegating 2+ million Hive power to Buildawhale, and Buildawhale is downvoting legitimate content
We began sharing factual information following unwarranted downvotes on Hive it's all in the transactions
Upon examining our posts, you will notice they have been downvoted, and we've been labeled as scammers and spammers, which we find amusing. We consistently share new content
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Sunday is just like the general resting and Sabbath day here
Even myself, I lock up my shop on Sundays and don’t work at all
Wonder why they chose Sunday to rest?
I never did
All the commandments bless and protect believers. We receive blessings and protection and Yehovah receives our love and worship. Win win
Amen and amen!
I don’t really know much about the Sabbath day but I know Sunday is just like the designed day for resting and being off from work
Who decided that though?
Hehe
That’s how I met it since I’ve been in the world
Look into the history of why Christians 'rest' on Sunday. It'll blow your mind.
Mark 2:23-27
Jesus says in the end “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28 So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
Jesus often ran afoul of Sabbath traditions, such as when He healed the sick or His disciples picked heads of grain. On the one hand, Jesus was a little loose with observance of the Sabbath. Yet he does insist on observance of the Sabbath, as you have pointed out.
And with this I think we can see that it comes down to what he was pointing out to the Pharisees, which is that they observed the letter of the law rather than the spirit of the law.
Looking at Exodus 20:8-11, it is explicit that Sabbath is a day of rest after having worked six days. No more than that.
Therefore, observing Sabbath on Saturday or Sunday is one of those situations of observing the letter of the law versus the spirit of the law. Jesus was all about the spirit of the law such that it should be compassionate and honors God. During His lifetime, Jesus remained Jewish and observed the traditions. But He also was more liberal in interpreting the traditions so that they fulfilled the intent rather than serve as ammunition for the Karens of those days, the Pharisees.
We can't read too much beyond the purpose of the Sabbath than Genesis 2:2-3 and Exodus 20:8-11. Anything that was added later is set straight by Jesus in Mark 2. One ought to take the word of Jesus that Sabbath is a required holy day to chill. The overriding requirements, in my opinion, are that we rest every seven days and honor God for his creation. Sabbath is a gift from God, not a job from God. And if Jesus is cool with small, compassionate variances on the observance of Sabbath here and there, then we can be sure it's OK with God.
Whether it's Saturday or Sunday, you're still resting every seventh day and honoring God for his creation.
That made no sense to me if we are observing the letter of the law vs the spirit of the law...
That argument always seemed off to me, just because we have no problem with the letter of each of there other 9 ten commandments. Just the 'spirit' of the fourth?
Doing good on the Sabbath was never the issue. The Pharisees made it a burden. It's not and was never intended to be such.
That's not what scripture says though, we are changing the bible if we say 'it doesnt matter which day'. The commandment is to observe the seventh day. Not the first. Scripture is very clear which is the Sabbath.
It is not selective. Jesus is rather consistent in interpreting the commandments in a more spiritual way than a purely legal one.
If you follow the letter of the law, for example, you are OK if you don't outwardly break any of the commandments. This is how a Prosecutor sees it.
However, Jesus teaches in Matthew 5 that if you you even think about breaking the commandment, you have sinned. For example, He expands on adultery and murder to include motivation and intention. Jesus was more concerned about what is in our hearts as sin originates in the heart. Sinful thoughts and desires can lead to sinful actions. This is not explicitly written in the commandments. This is how a judge sees it, and one assumes Jesus is the ultimate judge.
Judgement is extremely important, particularly in the commandment against murder as written in the original Hebrew, which is the intentional and unjustified taking of a human life. It's not a blanket prohibition against killing as we have taken it to be. But what's justifiable killing? Suddenly it's not so black and white. Does this mean Jesus was all for killing people for justifiable reasons? I don't have an answer for that one. But a strict interpretation would require accepting that.
Although not commandments, Jesus also addresses other matters, such as eating pork in Mark 7:18-19. Jesus teaches that it is not what you eat that defiles you, rather what comes out of your heart. Again, He teaches us against ritual purity in favor of inner purity and intentions.
My overall impression is that Jesus freed us from the superfluous rites of Judaism so that we could focus on the more spiritual aspects of our relationship with God. He does't do away with observation of the Commandments. However, he gives context to help us avoid being wicked in hour hearts (spirit of the law) even if we are not wicked in our actions (letter of the law).
This is just what I get out of reading into it.
However, as a Catholic, I defer to the Catechism, which lays out the reasoning for the Church choosing to celebrate Sabbath on Sunday.
https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7O.HTM
Some of this is addressed in Hebrews 4.
The passage is about Israel's disobedience and their denial from entering the land that was promised to them. But the passage is more about the new faithful entering the Kingdom of Heaven, which is promised if you are obedient. Thus, we are not absolved from observing Sabbath. But the rules aren't so hard like Moses had. In Hebrews 3 it is declared that Jesus is greater than Moses. Jesus does not have the same limitations that Moses had.
Therefore, we believe that this spiritual rest in Christ supersedes the physical rest of Sabbath. However, it does not free us from observing Sabbath completely. Rather, it moves Sabbath from being a purely physical act to a more spiritual act. This is also how we observe the Eucharist, which is a re-enactment of the Last Supper. Rather than sacrifice an actual lamb, pour its blood on the altar, and eat its flesh, Jesus provided us with a more spiritual option with his sacrifice in which his blood and flesh are sacrificed in the form of wine and unleavened bread.
This gets into the Catholic weeds a bit as the Eucharist is central to our relationship with God in fulfillment of Jewish tradition and also The Wedding Feast of the Lamb from the Book of Revelation. As Christ rose on Sunday, we celebrate his resurrection with the Eucharist, which is a symbol of God's new creation and our redemption. As we are "at rest with Christ", it fulfills the observance of the Sabbath on Saturday.
As far as I can tell, the Church does not argue that Sabbath is not on a Saturday. Rather, rest on Sunday, which coincides with the Eucharist, satisfies the requirement. When it comes down to it, Saturday is observing God's original creation, and Sunday is celebrating God's new creation and covenant.
Certainly, you can observe Sabbath on Saturday or Sunday. Or you can observe both, if you are so inclined. It's just that for us it's more of a spiritual observance of Sabbath, which we are still required to have. So it's not like we're getting away with NOT observing Sabbath. We're just fulfilling the Commandment in another way.
That's just Catholic catechism. I don't know how other Christian denominations work that out. But I think the overall premise is that Christ made faith and salvation more accessible.
Love the dialogue man.
I appreciate it very much!!
I mean I agree with some things, and obviously I will disagree with others. But I'll try to go through some points you brought up :)
Context is very important about this passage as well. Jesus is not saying swine is now clean. Keep reading, verses 20-24 shows what is making man unclean and defiles him.
But you are right, Jesus did free us from the 'burden' of the law. But as God's law is perfect, I don't think this is the law that people think it is. The ordinances, Mosaic laws, found on the side of the ark, not in it. Those for sure were nailed to the cross. Not the 10 commandments. You can't nail stone to a cross :)
And fancy you mentioned the Catechism. This is what I found while digging into it a few years ago:
So you have to ask yourself....Are we following God or are we following the traditions of man?
I just feel like Christians today have absolutely no issue with the other 9 commandments. But they start doing biblical gymnastics to get away from the Sabbath commandment. Which is just as important that do not murder, and have no other gods before me...
But again, love the dialogue man. I agree with some much of what you said, I just can't find anywhere in scripture that let's us change the day we are told to keep holy, or that it's done away with (which you agree it is not.)
It's not me that decides such things. I've only been around for 50 of the past 2000+ years. The Catholic Church acknowledges that biblical Sabbath is on Saturday. However, the shift to Sunday is a Spirit-led development that fulfills the spiritual intent of the Sabbath commandment in the context of the New Covenant. We're all about the New Covenant.
The Council of Laodicea only formalized what the early Church had already instituted, which was Sunday worship. It was otherwise an organic Spirit-led process, which is explained thusly:
The Catholic Church does have divine powers granted by Jesus:
Both the Gifts of the Holy Spirit and the Presence of Christ can be seen to support the idea that the shift to Sunday worship was not arbitrary or a mere matter of human convenience, but rather a Spirit-led development guided by divine inspiration. As such, the Church, meaning the body as whole, is in fulfillment of the commandment.
I just want to reiterate that this only applies to Catholics. From the inside looking out, the issue is not something that is of any meaningful concern to us in terms of fulfilling our obligations to God as we see our observance of the Sabbath as fulfilled. The checkbox is ticked every Sunday that we show up to Mass whether we partake of the Eucharist or not.
From the outside looking in, I can see how a Sunday Sabbath seems arbitrary. But there are many scholastic works that address the issue for the Catholic Church. In practical terms, these scholastic works cannot satisfy other denominations that have a fundamental disagreement with how the Church views matters of faith.
In other words, just like the early Catholic Church wanted to distinguish itself from Judaism, Christian denominations make it a central motivation to distinguish themselves from the Catholic Church. By definition, we will have points of disagreement lest we become one and the same. Therefore, it's not my aim to convince anybody that they're wrong. All I can do is explain our point of view.
And I greatly appreciate that.
I dug into some of the history of the Catholic church. But it's obvious I dont know, or understand it all. That's why I do appreciate the dialogue.
That's something I know we will agree on. It's up to the Holy Spirit to convict us. Nothing I say or you say will change either of our minds.
That being said, you can see how heads have been bumping for a few centuries now lol
Yeah, it requires intimate knowledge of scripture and how things tie together in prophesies and fulfillment of those prophesies, and the original interpretation of scripture and Christ's reinterpretation.
For me, all the heavy lifting is done. If I want to get into the weeds on a topic, there are volumes of publications that address it specifically for Catholics. The fact that so much literature abounds means I can take it for granted that smarter people than me have given it thought and it has been incorporated into Church teachings. I can rest assured that I'm not being led astray, leaving me to only worry about improving my relationship with God. I know that what I have is built on a rock rather than on sand. I don't have to constantly test the foundations. And there's a freedom in that.
It just comes down to what we put our faith in a suppose.
For Catholics, it's the church.
For Protestants, it's the bible.
It's a fascinating look into our faiths for sure.
I don't think it's accurate to say that the Church is the focus. Our focus is the Eucharist, which requires us to try to be good. And the catechism are the principles that guide us so that we may be worthy of the Eucharist.
Besides requiring us to observe the ten commandments, Jesus also left us with a duty to have Communion. Jesus said "do this in remembrance of me" at the Last Supper. Therefore Eucharist is celebrated every Sunday to remember His death and resurrection. We build churches so that we can share the Eucharist. Scripture readings from the Old and New Testament are always a part of the Mass. We can't partake of the Eucharist if we have knowingly sinned, for which we must go to confession to be forgiven.
Just about every meaningful thing the Church does revolves around that one connection that Jesus left us. It is the only time we know for certain that He is with us. When He said that the wine and bread are His blood and flesh, for that moment, He is physically present with us.
Interesting stuff for sure.
Isn't that what baptism is for?
Baptism is the sacrament that welcomes you into the Church. As Jesus was baptized, we also follow the example. It's the first freebie cleansing of sins, particularly original sin.
The other sacraments prior to marriage are First Communion, in which you first partake of the Eucharist, but prior to that you have your first confession, which doesn't get much hype. And there is Confirmation in which is a stronger personal commitment to the Faith when you are older and can make such a commitment.
Baptism would not be enough to remind us of His death and resurrection as we only do it the one time, and often as babies. Compare baptism to the Eucharist, which is offered daily. If we are so inclined, we have an opportunity to be physically and spiritually with Christ every day. Something like that only reminds you of your shortcomings. So, it's a frequent reminder to try to deserve his sacrifice.
I'm confused. This just doesn't make sense to me. If we are to choose Christ as our Lord and Saviour, how can a baby decide that they wish to choose Jesus?
I don't think infant baptism is biblical, simply because Christ (our example) was a full immersion baptism when he was 30 years old.
Isn't it a personal decision? How can a baby decide at such a young age?
One Lord, one faith, one baptism? Ephesians 4:5
Walk me through this one man. Appreciate the insight.
This isn't part of the Church dogma. It's just something I remember from childhood when visiting old people with my Grandma. It was once common, at least among people of Mexican heritage, to ask people whom they have just met if they have children. And then the big question, how many of them are still living? Children weren't expected to always survive into adulthood. It's only relatively recent that growing into adulthood is expected. My Grandmother once told me that she would pray that if her baby died, she would prefer it be early before she got a chance to really bond as it would otherwise break her heart.
Now, moving in to the dogma. First, there's original sin. If your baby dies, you want them to have been cleansed of that sin. You'd want your child to have the best shot at going to Heaven.
Second, baptism also infuses God's sanctifying grace and the Holy Spirit into the baby so that they can grow in their relationship with God.
Third, it's a welcoming into the Church. Often, this is the first time the community is introduced to a couple's new baby.
Fourth, baptism is necessary for salvation. It's such a simple thing to do with a great reward. Why would you deny a baby salvation?
Fifth, and finally, as Catholic parents, there's a good chance the child will be Catholic. How can a parent fulfill their responsibilities of raising a good Catholic when they're on the fence about whether the kid could possibly be Episcopalian? You raise the kid Catholic and they can always decide they want nothing to do with the Church when they are older. It happens often. Nothing is lost. But in baptizing them, we are fulfilling our parental obligation to get them started in the Faith until they decide otherwise.
It's not spelled out, but the child still has the opportunity to opt out at Confirmation. If they do the Confirmation, they accept their place in the Church. If they don't do the Confirmation they are still welcome but are lacking in the sacrament that relies on their free will.
it is more about a choose ,obey God or man . God says shabath is his day ,man says Sunday .So you decide.
Certainly other Christians are able to choose for themselves.
As Catholics, it's not really a choice. It's baked in to being a member.
That is fascinating to me. I have to plead ignorance to a lot of how the Catholic faith works. But wow, what a statement you made man. How does that all work?
This is a big question.
Without going into the weeds, we rely largely on objective truth, which has been spelled out by centuries of religious scholasticism. It gets harder and harder to change the church as it must remain consistent in how it interprets God's will. Part of the faith is that the Church itself is infallible. Individual clergy and members can be fallible, and often are.
Our controversial new Pope Francis who has caused quite a stir has only clarified the existing Catechism to address more present social concerns. What he has stated, while shocking to many, has not changed the catechism. When you go back and compare what he said with what the catechism is, he's not wrong. It may be uncomfortable and new. But it's not wrong. Maybe Pope Francis is a big Socialist. But what he says remains true to Church doctrine.
We have to trust that the Holy Spirit will guide the Church to change when it is necessary to change.
And we see the Church as Christ's bride as is described in Revelation 19:7. To us, questioning the Church is like questioning Christ. We can question a priest. But it would be quite arrogant to question the Church.
So, if the Church says Sunday Sabbath is OK, it is. We believe it because we believe the Church is inspired by the Holy Spirit and by Christ's presence. The Church is Christ's gift to us so that we can become closer to Him. And if we shun the Church, we shun Christ. We don't get to tell Christ the conditions under which we will follow Him. So, like I stated, it's baked in. We are in; or we are out. Do, or do not. There is no try.
in effect shabbat is also a command of the love law of God,everyone can achive it . #adventisthive #conquishive
That's my thinking as well. I don't keep sabbath to be saved. I keep it out of love and because I am saved.