Is Voter Apathy Our Main DHF Problem? .:. WorkerBee PH-Pool Week 211
Firstly, I have to thank @alex-rourke for his last post where he wrote about decentralization and DHF voting, as his reply on my comment had exactly the title of this post inside! But, his words made my brain calculate and connect some dots from my previous experiences, and here we are... Let me plant a small seed in your head, and you can do whatever you want with it... 😃
I don't want to go into discussions about the "glitch in the Matrix" when @blocktrades voted for the Return Proposal as many Hivians wrote about that a lot... Was that good or bad, right or wrong, positive or negative, I will let you decide for yourself... In my opinion, it did its job... It started a discussion about the elephant in the room... The system isn't good and it's time to discuss ideas and possible solutions... As it's not a question of A or B, but rather more complex, it should be broken into small pieces and we should pick the ideas to solve the puzzle...
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This post isn't about if the Return proposal is too big, or too small... It's not about which proposals are good or not... It's not about whether certain proposals ask too much money or not...
It is about the voter apathy! The first thing I noticed when the Return Proposal skyrocketed wasn't that many proposals got "defunded", but rather that ONE proposal stayed funded! IMO, that was a showcase that proposals CAN BE FUNDED even with a high Return Proposal... Even with a relatively small VOTING PARTICIPATION! But, the fact is... We need more active voters...
Why do people not vote on proposals?
I will tell you why I'm not voting... Because I don't like a certain proposal and I don't want to support it... But, that doesn't mean that I'm not an active voter, even though I didn't vote...
There was an idea to implement a "downvote" button for proposals, but I can't remember what was the reason to not do it... As I can see, it works well in Splinterlands and it could work well for DHF too! Also, that would be the solution for "counting" the REAL participation in voting, where I could downvote a proposal and be counted as an active voter!
Speaking of voter apathy, it is a thing... If you are not an Orca or Whale on HIVE, you could say that you are irrelevant for voting (Not true at all!) and skip voting... Also, as the Return Proposal was too low, some Hivians didn't care about voting as, anyway, a few big whales would make it pass... That's a huge demotivational effect that is very much visible on HIVE, especially when you read posts and comments on DHF topic...
The possible solution
The whole point of HIVE is to have an active, motivated, and incentivized community! When people are active and appreciated, they are more effective, and more productive, and the whole chain is healthier! Active people don't leave the chain, they contribute!
We need to incentivize the VOTING PROCESS! But, to do that, we need both voting options (upvote and downvote), and the incentive should be the same for either of the two actions! As I know, there is a specific amount of HIVE that needs to be paid for creating a DHF proposal... That amount could be part of the "incentive pool" for voters!
Just to clarify, I'm not that smart to get this idea... 🙂 Something similar exists on Jupiter aggregator (on Solana blockchain), where token stakers vote for specific proposals (just like we do with our HivePower)... Every quarter, those who have voted are rewarded for doing that with a small amount of staked JUP tokens (in our case, it could be HP)... Even if the incentive is small, it can trigger people to vote, to be more active!
Don't forget that HIVE is stronger when we have more active users!!!
What do you think about this idea and do you have your ideas on how we could improve DHF?
Let's see the WorkerBee Pool numbers for this week...
This week, we have mined 100 BEE tokens in total!!! 10 more than the week before......
The good news is that we got a new delegator to the pool! Welcome, @evernoticethat! Thanks for your first delegation! As usual, we got some new delegations from old members, too! Thanks guys! Appreciate your support!
This POOL doesn't have fees and you get up to 20% MORE by delegating to it!
What about the bonus tokens?
After a big price dump that the LEN token had last week, the price recovery is doing very well... The reason behind the dump was that one big @liotes investor was hacked and the hacker removed all LEN:LENM liquidity from the pools, unstaked LENM tokens, and dumped all to the markets... Luckily, there was plenty of liquidity in the pools and many people jumped to embrace the opportunity to buy cheap LEN and LENM tokens... After the price dropped "only" 25%, thanks to demand, in this short period of a few days, we are close to the previous price levels!
There will be distributed 50 LEN tokens to the delegators of the pool as a bonus reward today!
As always, in the end, let's give the exact numbers for this week... 100 BEE tokens and 50 LEN tokens will be distributed as a bonus... The APR (without the bonus) was 5.395%, and when we added the bonus it went up to 6.461%!
I have calculated the ROI approximately with medium prices for all tokens at the moment of creating this post... So, those numbers are valid if you bought WB and sold BEE tokens at the middle HiveEngine price...
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Thank you for your time,
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I don't think a downvote will change much, I mean what I do is, vote for the return proposal and then vote the proposals I like, that's the same as downvote the proposals I don't like... You will tell me but with a downvote you can make them down even more, true but then it would be like a double malus for the downvoted proposal, not very balanced... The problem is the proxy vote, people just don't bother checking proposals and proxy vote, like blocktrades he has tons of proxy vote because people blind follow
Hmmm... If there will be a downvote, we shouldn't have a Return Proposal, but another measure for the "majority votes"... I am not sure if I understood your observation well...
I agree about the proxy vote. That is what you said.
If we remove the return proposal, how can you determine what's the minimum vote required for a proposal to be found? There would be no threshold so basically even 1 HP would make it pass and only those downvoted to 0 would not... Then it has to be chosen a minimum vote but who does that since it's decentralized ? And you would be back to a return proposal to let community decide the threshold 😅
You know the Return Proposal idea isn't taken from the Holy Bible... 😃 There are different solutions and it's normal that you and me, don't have answers for everything... That's why it's important to have a dialogue...
The current system was created more-less without the broader dialogue, and here we are... Discussion is No1 tool of decentralization... If we don't use it, we will go back to the centralized, ineffective system, full of corruption, and a mad community... 🙂
Aye, i just can't find anything better tbh 😅 I just think already removing proxy vote would promote more partecipation and interest in people, but for a rework eheh that's a biiig thing, maybe hive discord would be the good place
A lot of defi protocols have an interesting way to distribute the funds according to the votes. I think downvoting would not even be necessary. We have all a vote regarding how the DHF is distributed and this vote depends on our stake. Now imagine that we have a 100% vote and then we can distribute it the way we want. 25% for project 1, 50% for project two and 25% for return proposal. Like that it would be much fairer because even whales couldn't vote for all proposals with their full vote. I agree that rewarding the voting activity would be quite good. A proposal of the DHF could simply distribute a part of its distribution to the people who drop their votes maybe also in relation with their voting power. This would be another incentive for holding hive power and in my opinion the whole voting process would be fairer.
That's a really great idea. This would certainly make things fairer.
That's an interesting idea with percentages... But if I disagree with the proposal and I still want to get incentives, without the downvote, I would still have to vote "for" the proposal... true, maybe with a 0.001%, but it is a vote... 😃
The thing is that you can only allocate 100% of your voting power to the proposals. If you don't like one proposal, you don't vote for it or you vote for the return proposal. You would get incentive in relation to the voting power that you use for voting. So the more you use your voting power, the more return you would get.
example:
Proposal 1 - your vote = 25%
Proposal 2 - your vote = 0%
Proposal 3 - your vote = 60%
Return proposal - your vote = 10%
You would vote with 95% of your voting power and you would get rewards for exactly that. You would be limited to 100% voting power and the higher you HP, the more voting rewards you would recieve. If the voting rewards would come from the DHF, this would ensure a nice way to spread it to all people on the blockchain.
Thanks for the news. This is a good idea you have here, and I support it. I agree with @achim03, too.
Maybe I could add this: We should vote several times in favor of the proposal. At least once more, halfway through the proposal. The proposers of the proposal should also, at least halfway through the project, report back on what is happening.
If voters had a reason (if they get a prize), at least at the end of the project, they would certainly be more active because it is in their interest to do so.
And for the witnesses, I would put the vote every six months. We need to speed things up or get the members more active.
Currently, if you don't change votes, your vote will expire in 6 months... So, that's already implemented...
What you said for proposals is similar to that... The vote could expire in 3 months, and then the voter should "reconsider" to vote again or not...
All this, without the incentives, would be impossible to do as it requires even more time than now... But, I like the idea... :)
Oh wow did the owner recover his/her account (hacked one)?. Regarding the elephant in the room, I voted on a proposal which I know back then that it will benefit people in Hive. As time goes by there are certain questions regarding this, so I went and unvoted it. Before this I received a DM stating I need to this and that. I'm done with people telling me what to do, most of my entire life people controlled and manipulated me telling me what to do and I changed for a new me. Anyways thank you for the LEN tokens I love this project because it's long term!
Unfortunately, he didn't as his recovery account was hacked too...
Hehehehe... That was the reason for me to block DMs on Discord... The number of private messages begging for votes was ridiculous... I couldn't do my work because of them... 😃
Some people can't accept NO as an answer...
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It's tough. I think that the current system has its issues and I agree that there can be some changes. I don't think the downvote problem is a valid solution because of proxy votes.
Why do you think that proxy votes make a difference with downvoting proposals? They work similarly to downvoting posts... At least, maybe it would force people to vote themselves, as proxy-ing is making the system more centralized...
I guess that would be true, but maybe I am mixing things up with being anonymous voting. I guess it would work out and I wonder if it will cause a ton of drama like how downvote trials work.
voting "Return Proposal" means that we are against every project whether we mean it or not. And actual problem is not the DHF fund but the distribution of fund by DHF. Unfortunately, Hive top layer is so "Hive" heavy that "DHF" funds get released on their support of projects, instead of project ROI, benefits and milestones.
IMO, that's the main issue here! What was happening lately, some people didn't like inLEO proposal, so they voted for the Return proposal... But, having a separate "downvote" button per proposal could help out with narrowing the choice...
The rest of what you said is true, but by incentivizing voting, we would have more "active" voters which could make a difference... THere are a lot of dormant HP out there to "beat the whales"...
I actually do vote on proposals, of course only the ones I want to support, and not all of them. I think it's always nice to support people/projects on wherever I can, and proposals are one of the many forms. Thanks for the update and tokens!
!LUV
That's the point... To support those that you want to support... What we need is more people like you, to actively vote for proposals, and push funded DHF projects to be more accountable!
😎
Yeah, Sometimes a big investor will have a big impact like that. Sad to hear that his/her account was hacked. I hope s/he will recover from such a big loss. It's good that your pool is working despite the low APR. No change for now. I still believe it's a good thing to hold and delegate WORKERBEE. !ALIVE
!PIZZA
Yeah, it was a messy week all around... Unfortunately, the guy has lost control over his recovery account too, so no hope that he can get it back... 😔
Thanks for being part of the pool!
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well i think the problem though is the inability to give account of what the money being funded was used for, most proposals act like this, once funded they witdraw the money to an exchange and convert to USD or whatever fiat, without using the money for what was agreed upon they take personal. i just feel whatever is right is right and its a good idea
You described what is something that happens because of the lack of transparency... Not all proposals do that, but it does happen a lot... We need more accountability, that's for sure!
hmmmm well you eight about that
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I think it's not just about voter apathy, I think voters discrimination should be included too. Imagine if we have a return proposal and then you go and vote it because you think the proposal isn't good enough, then moments later the owner of the proposal is in your DM asking you why you've downvoted their proposal and asking you to remove it. Personally I think Hive users will gladly vote especially if they can remain anonymous. Also rewarding voters can work too.
I'm not sure if "discrimination" is a good word for what you described... But, I do understand what you mean as it happened to me too... It is more bullying others until they change their mind... That's something that shouldn't happen and it says more about the people who do that and their "real motives" behind it... It is already happening... Maybe downvoting would make it worse, not sure...
Some people just can't accept NO as an answer and that's a big problem... More for them than for us...
Downvotes are a must. Incentives would be nice to increase participation. I proposed it as well in the past, although it wasn't very well received at the time. My idea was to target staking rewards toward governance voters, but maybe that wasn't the best idea, and a better incentive system can be created.
It will sound weird, but you are the only person in the comments on this post who agreed with the downvote option! 😃 I thought that more people are Splinterlands players and will "recognize the concept", but it looks like I was wrong... :)
ANyway, this post will probably not move certain things, but it's good to have a different ideas on the table... The moment for discussion and changes will come, as the current solution isn't sustainable...
Maybe because downvotes have a bad connotation on Hive.
But this system with a return proposal to set a threshold for funding doesn't allow "micromanagement" of the proposals and their funding. It's more like a tidal wave. It doesn't hit only one spot, but an entire area.
Yeah... I agree... Because of 1 proposal, all the other suffer... That's why we need a downvote to be "more specific" about what we support and what don't...
Well, maybe more than one, lol.
You cannot just take pieces from the @splinterlands model. If you want to implement the exact same model, that is all good. The full system is:
I'm fine with this system. If DHF gets downvotes, we adding an element it was not originally designed to have. Return Proposal functions as a downvote on every Proposal.
I agree that the Splinterlands model is better than the current DHF Proposal model, but I'm not the one who makes decisions... We would need a broad discussion about that...
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